Beauty in the Brokenness- Christian Women (Bible Study, Faith, Sexuality, Freedom from Shame)

When Dreams Fall Apart with Jennifer Lucy Tyler (SEEN SERIES)

• Teresa Whiting • Episode 131

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This week, I speak with Jennifer Lucy Tyler about God’s power and presence in our lives in the midst of unanswered prayer. We talk about Leah’s story, Jennifer’s story, and the reality of the goodness of God in our waiting.

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SPEAKER_00:

Another way to take in God's glory is to just meditate on his word, um, to meditate on his word, who he is, uh, his character, and then also think about how God's glory has continuously showed up in your life. I think all of us, if we just pause for a moment and stop thinking about our present reality, we can look back and we can think on the goodness of Jesus, right? There's a saying that they would say, in the church I grew up in, when I think of the goodness of Jesus, my soul cries out, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Hi, friend. If you've ever wondered how God's word connects with the messy, broken parts of your story, you're in the right place. Welcome to Beauty in the Brokenness, where we have honest conversations about the Bible, our real life struggles, and the hope God brings for healing. I'm your host, Teresa Whiting, an author, Bible teacher, and trauma-informed life coach, but mostly a friend and fellow struggler. No matter who you are or where you've been, I'm inviting you to encounter the God of rescue, redemption, and restoration. The God who is still creating beauty right in the midst of your brokenness. Well, welcome friends. I am excited to introduce you to my guest today. I'm speaking with Jennifer Lucy Tyler. Jennifer is a Bible teacher, a speaker, and the founder of Soul Circles, a ministry that helps women engage scripture and community. She has written several books, including When Dreams Fall Apart, which is the book we're going to be discussing today. And I'm so thankful that you're here today, Jennifer. Thanks for being on the podcast. And before we start, if you could just tell the listeners a little more about who you are and the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so uh I'm happy to be here and thank you so much for the invite. I am a wife of how many years now? I should know that off the hand offhand. 14 years. Our anniversary is actually coming up. I'm a mom of a two-year-old girl named Justice Joy. I am a Bible teacher. I love God's people. I love God's Word. I'm also a humanitarian. I work for the largest global Christian humanitarian organization, uh, World Vision. And uh I'm just passionate about seeing people know God. And so, yes, I'm an author too. Did I say that? Yes, you said.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I love that your daughter's name, Justice Joy. How did you come up with that name?

SPEAKER_00:

There's a passage in scripture where there is a woman who she is going, it's a parable that Jesus tells, and this woman is pleading to the judge for justice, and he is she is pleading and pleading and until the point where he finally grants her justice. And uh, I felt like when it came to um our story of fertility, that we were pleading and pleading before God for almost 12 years before uh God said yes and opened my womb and gave us our justice. Um so um that name just it it fits her.

SPEAKER_01:

That is so beautiful. I love that. I love it. Um, so on the podcast, we have been talking about Leah and her story. And you wrote a book called When Dreams Fall Apart. And before we start talking about Leah, I would love to hear just a little bit more about how you decided to write that book. What's the story behind it? What's your heart behind it?

SPEAKER_00:

My heart behind it is speaking to the struggle that every believer has. We all can relate to being in a moment where we are praying for something and there's this waiting time. There's this messy middle between our prayer and actually hearing an answer from God or receiving an answer from God. And then sometimes those answers that we receive aren't what we expected. Uh, they at times they may be a no, or they that answer may be a not yet, or maybe a not this way. And so uh as I've experienced that in my own life, I wanted to just encourage the church, encourage other believers who are struggling with seeing God in those spaces and in that time. And it's something that I struggled with uh throughout uh particularly our journey of infertility. And so I wanted to just bring some hope and encouragement to those that are also in that area of sitting in an unanswered prayer for now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I think every person who's listening to this podcast could say, in some, in some way, some big and some small, like, this is not how I thought my life was gonna turn out. Okay. This is not, this is not the dream that I dreamed uh for my life. And I think that that's so common. So I think your book is gonna reach so many people and just that message of giving them hope and you know, perseverance when things are not the way we think they should be, or the way we wanted them to be, or the way we're praying for them to be.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Uh I can I always say I can look back at my vision boards from early 20s, and they look nothing like my life today. So yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love that. Um, I want to I want to talk a little bit about Leah's story because I think she is a woman who I'm pretty sure didn't dream of being in a marriage where she was rejected and hated. And, you know, she was her life, I think, was filled with disappointment and heartache. And we see it, like we see it in her words when she's like, maybe this time Jacob will love me, maybe this time he'll, you know, pay attention to me. And we see this like heartache through her life. Um, and I think for many women, they are living in a in a world of like shattered dreams and unanswered prayers. And for for those women who are saying, Yeah, I resonate with Leah's story, I resonate even with Jennifer's story of you know, this prayer that's being delayed or being unanswered. What are some words of hope and comfort can you give them?

SPEAKER_00:

First, I I want to uh just give space to that woman um that's listening and give you space to lament, uh to understand that we are in a fallen world that is hard. And so uh my book isn't about just wrapping up a solution in a pretty bow and handing it to you. It's about being able to sit with you through the tears, through the uh tough emotions and feelings that you're experiencing uh for whatever it is that you are experiencing, and know that uh there's space for you to grieve it, there's space for you to lament. But biblical lament is uh something that I talk about in my book, and that is uh lamenting with hope. Um and so what is that hope in? That hope is in the God who is our creator, who um is over all things and who brings all of us to uh an expected beautiful end, but also is doing something in each and every one of us while we're waiting. Uh, and sometimes it's not always easy to see. So my um encouragement is that we pray and we would ask God to show us what he is doing while we're in this situation. What could he be doing in our lives underneath the surface? What could he be doing in us uh as we wait and to just be open to seeing God in unexpected places uh during this time?

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. I love that because you know what, we're none of us are tying up a bow this side of heaven. Yeah, we're just not gonna get to do that. Someday, someday we're not here. Yeah. Yeah. Um your first chapter focuses on barrenness. And I think often when we think of barrenness, we immediately think like infertility. We think, yeah, you know, unable to have a child. But but barrenness, that that idea can show up in all different ways in our lives. So maybe how how would you define barrenness and where does it show up in in our lives, in our in our everyday lives?

SPEAKER_00:

So I when I wrote that chapter, I was thinking about how barrenness is defined as desolate places uh that are not seemingly not bearing fruit. And I started to think about some places that I have seen um, like the salt flats in Utah, that are absolutely gorgeous. They're beautiful, and they are desolate, they have no vegetation. Uh, I thought about uh places that I visited. I love hiking. So um I love hiking in places I went to um somewhere in Arizona and completely barren out there and dry, yet uh in that dry and barren land, there was beauty to be behold. And so uh as I thought about it, I thought about how we all experience times where it seems like God isn't doing things, where uh you're writing, writing, writing, and no one's picking it up, right? Uh you're putting out all the things, no one's listening. Um you're praying all the prayers for your wayward child, but that child seems to be getting worse instead of getting better, right? Uh, but I've often seen in those times that God is doing something beautiful beneath the surface. Uh, that in those times where it seems like there's no fruit, that underneath there are some roots, there is some cultivation, there are some things that are happening that we can't yet see. So the idea was that the Lord, He's always working, He's always working, He's always moving, um, He's always developing, He always has a plan, even though it seems like we're in a barren season.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, I love that. And I know um my husband and I experienced, you know, infertility only for three years, three and a half years. They were three and a half long years. You know, yeah. It it felt like a very long time. And I know for some people that seems like a very short time, but but during that season, you feel this like, why aren't you answering? Why is everybody else around me getting pregnant? Why is it so easy for everyone in my family to just, you know, boom, we're we want a baby, and then nine months later they have a baby.

SPEAKER_00:

They have it.

SPEAKER_01:

It there's so many, I think so many women that can relate to that form of barrenness, but then the other form that you were talking about, where there's just this, like you said, you're you're putting stuff out there and nothing's happening, or you're praying and you're not seeing the answers.

SPEAKER_00:

So it seems like you're like, okay, God, like I'm putting things out there. I'm praying. Like, what's happening in my family? My child, like my child is going crazy right now, and they know the Lord, but they're wayward right now. They're you know, and it seems like nothing's happening in their lives, but the truth be told, God is he's working, you know, he's always working, even when we can't see it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, even when we can't see it, I think that's the key. We want to see it. We want to see it. Faith is living by sight or by faith, not by sight. It's exactly what we always get to see. Exactly. One of the things you address in your book is um this idea of promises or manifesting or the word of faith movement. Now, I'm not super familiar with that movement. I've heard of it. Maybe you can explain a little bit about um what that movement is and and how it can be helpful or harmful.

SPEAKER_00:

So uh the word of faith movement is characterized by the belief that faith is a force uh that can be used to obtain health and wealth and prosperity uh through our words, through our spoken words, what we say. And uh this is a movement that's popular all over our churches in America and beyond.

SPEAKER_01:

And and what is wrong with that? Like, I know people who are like, I need to, I need to speak the, you know, words have power, and so I should be speaking words that are life-giving and words that are what I want to see happen in my life.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So what's so what's interesting about the word of faith movement is that its origins come from uh a movement called New Thought. And this was derived by a man by the name of E. W. Kenyon. And this is uh, if you do if if you're able to do some research on it, it's a new age uh form of uh thinking. And so this centers what's wrong with it is that it centers us, it centers us as the people who can uh speak something and it comes to pass. Where uh in scripture we see that it's God is the one who when he speaks and when he says something, then something will come to pass. And um it gets really it gets really dangerous because it places us in the place and with at with the characteristics of God. And so there are characteristics that we as humans have that are like God, but there are also characteristics that only God has God alone, right? God is sovereign, which means that He is in control over all things. Well, the word of faith movement says, Well, wait a minute, you know, it's not just God being sovereign, we have control and power over these things as well. And so um that's why it's so dangerous because um when it comes to our unanswered prayers, there are times that if you come from this particular line of thinking and belief, that when a prayer is unanswered, you can start thinking that it's your fault and then enter shame because perhaps uh that cancer came back because I didn't speak enough words of faith, because I didn't pray hard enough, perhaps that relative passed away because I didn't speak or decree or declare the right amount or this the right words or have enough faith to make something happen. And so that's why it's really dangerous. It's putting that pressure on the individual to control instead of resting in the control of God and who he is and resting in his perfect plan.

SPEAKER_01:

It seems like from what you're describing, we're the sovereign, not God. Like it's it's up to us. And I don't want to talk a ton about this movement because I don't know a lot about it, but I do I can see how you're saying how people would feel that shame or would feel that it's my fault, or I didn't do enough or speak enough. And I just appreciate you kind of addressing that because I think that we hear things and they're just like, oh yeah, that sounds good. I need to, I need to start saying these things every day and declaring them. And and it makes sense in a in a way, but the way you described it, it it's it can be dangerous. Um so one of the things I love about Leah's story is that she, in the midst of her suffering, in the midst of her painful life, at one point, and she kind of seems to go forward and back and just kind of like us, like she's doing well, she's not doing so well. All of us go through these seasons, but she at one point, um, when she named Judah, she said, This time I will praise the Lord. So despite the fact that her prayers were not being answered, and her marriage was very difficult, she was able in the midst of that pain to say, This time I will praise the Lord. And so I know that one of the things you say in your book is um, I'm quoting you, you said, Um, God wanted his people to flourish in the midst of hardship while waiting for our prayers to be answered. We are not to cower and wither away. And I think that is a beautiful sentiment. So what does that look like to flourish and not wither in the midst of our hardship?

SPEAKER_00:

Man, it makes me think, and I'm I'm actually trying to I'm looking down because I'm trying to pull up a passage of what that made me think of. It made me think of uh the children of Israel, and they were exiled uh from Jerusalem to Babylon in the book of Jeremiah. And that was a difficult time, right? Where I'm sure they were praying uh to the God of Israel, like, why are we being sent to Babylon? And the word of the Lord came to them, and uh it came to Jeremiah. Um, it came to them through Jeremiah, and Jeremiah tells them, uh build houses and live in them, plant gardens and eat their produce, find wives for yourselves and have sons and daughters, find wives. Like he he talks about how to multiply there and do not decrease, uh, to pursue the well-being of the city that I've deported to you, deported you to. Um, pray to the Lord on its behalf, for when it thrives, you will thrive. And so I was thinking how they are going to this place, but yet uh they are still living. They are still honoring, like they are still to honor God in what they are doing. They are uh being fruitful and multiplying. And so I would bring it to our context, I am just thinking about, you know, doing the Lord's work and whatever that is for you, right? If it's uh serving in your home, serving in your local church, uh discipling your neighbor, loving your neighbor, uh, just uh being fruitful where God has planted you, uh, that is uh the idea of flourishing. Uh even when you're in this period of waiting for God to answer, to not be stagnant, but to still uh serve Him.

SPEAKER_01:

So as you're talking, I'm thinking about um kind of I I grew up with the with the the little acronym J-O Y, like Jesus others you. And it and it was the the thought is always like Jesus comes first and then others and then yourself. And there's a an idea that when you serve others, it kind of pulls you up out of that pit, yeah, which I think is absolutely true. I think when you get get out, like you're you're stuck, you're in your home, you're just ruminating, and you get out and you serve somebody, that changes you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And also there's this idea of lament and sitting with the pain and and allowing yourself the the space and the time to grieve. And and I don't know that you have an answer to this, but like, how do you hold both of those things at the same time? And and what's the balance? And and when do you get out and do something? And when do you just sit at home and cry?

SPEAKER_00:

I I don't know, you know, I don't know if I have an answer. I think it's both. I feel like um I I talk about in the book how both of these things often live together. Uh, joy and lament. They are like partners. Uh, I was thinking about this the other day. It was the anniversary of my father's uh passing, and how on that day I had such an amazing time because we were also celebrating, we just happened to be celebrating my husband's birthday um as well, because he uh passed away around the time of my husband's birthday. And so in that time, you know, I'm having the joy of this celebration of this man that I love, but there was a moment where I was alone and by myself where I felt the sadness and grief of missing my dad. And so I think life happens like that, where there's gonna be moments of lament and moments of celebration and moments of joy. And I think that it's okay to hold them both and to uh be open for uh when they come. There's a there's a time for joy, there's a time for lament, there's a time for celebration and to just be open.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm glad you normalized that because I think sometimes people could feel guilty on one way or the other, like, oh, I shouldn't be celebrating today, or you know, whatever, or I don't want to ruin my husband's birthday, you know, just normalizing the fact that that it's a both end and it's normal and it's okay.

SPEAKER_00:

It's so normal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Um, one of the things you do is you end your book with a chapter on glory, and I love that. Um, how can we experience God's glory in the day-to-day, even amidst our, you know, the joy and the sorrow? How do we experience his glory in in both of those things?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh well, I talk about one of the ways that I love to experience uh the glory of God, and that is glory in his creation. Uh, when there are moments when I'm I'm sitting in that tension of unanswered prayer or heaviness or suffering and sorrow, uh, one of my favorite things to do is to go somewhere beautiful and take a bike ride or hike and to just get quiet and to just take in the glory of God's creation and who he is and what he has already done. And so um you may not be able to go to a nice place, you know, to do that. You may wherever you are, but I feel like another way to take in God's glory is to just meditate on his word, um, to meditate on his word, who he is, uh, his character, and then also think about how God's glory has continuously showed up in your life. I think all of us, if we just pause for a moment and stop thinking about our present reality, we can look back and we can think on the goodness of Jesus, right? There's a saying that they would say in the church I grew up in, when I think of the goodness of Jesus, my soul cries out, right? And so if you just take a moment to just think on the goodness of Jesus, that's a way of reflecting on his glory and and who he is, right? And so uh there's several ways of doing that, but those are the ones that stand out to me.

SPEAKER_01:

I love what you're saying right now about thinking on the glory of Jesus. I just want to point out how awesome that is, and then also how challenging it is in our culture where our brains, our brains don't have space to think. Like we're so anytime we have a moment of silence, we're we're clicking, we're on our phone, we're putting on a music or a podcast or something. Don't turn off this podcast. But, you know, we're always distracted. And so we've lost, I think, sometimes the imagination, the ability to think or to be still and quiet. And that's something I'm kind of passionate about. And I bring it up often because I think it's just something we constantly need to be reminded of to set things down and to stop and listen.

SPEAKER_00:

We have to. We have to get to a place where we can quiet our mind and allow the Lord to fill us up. And we can't often because we're so distracted by everything, but it is in um those quiet moments. I I feel like Elijah, like the still small voice of the Holy Spirit, can really comfort and speak to us. And uh it's just such a beautiful healing thing to do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. And I loved what you said about getting out in nature. And yeah, I'm in Florida, so there's no mountains, but I'll I'll go to the beach and I'll just stand at the beach and I'm jealous of you. Well, we can visit each other. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Where are you? I'm in Maryland.

SPEAKER_01:

Maryland, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not surrounded by mountains, but I'm not that far from the Shenandoah mountain ranges, and I love those drives in Virginia. Uh, taking those drives and going over to hike, and then I take a lot of bike rides and see God's creation in that way. Beautiful, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. Um, Jennifer, where can listeners connect with you and find your book and your ministry and all the things that you that you do?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, you can go to jenniferlucytyler.com and I am Jennifer Lucy Tyler on all social media outlets Instagram, Facebook, I'm not on Twitter, but yeah, you can find me there just by my name.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I'll have links to all the places in the show notes. So as we wrap up this episode, Jennifer, um, would you speak directly to the listener who feels like her dreams have fallen apart? Um, and she's still waiting for God to answer her prayers.

SPEAKER_00:

I just uh want to let you know that your story, our stories, they do not end here. And that is a good thing. There is redemption. And yes, the prayers of the righteous are absolutely being answered daily. The Lord knows us, he hears our cries, and he sees our tears, and he is with you, and his spirit is present with you in the moments, even when his voice seems faint. And so my prayer is that uh you would see God uh. That you would see God strongly even in the messy middle.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. I love that. Thank you so much for being here, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for hanging out with me today on Beauty in the Brokenness. To find anything I mentioned on the episode, go to TeresaWiting.comslash listen, which is where you can find all the show notes. I'll have all the ways you can connect with Jennifer Lucy Tyler, where you can get her book. And how you can connect with her ministry. If you're enjoying this podcast, would you take just a minute to leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts? That's one way that we can send a message that this is a podcast worth listening to. It would mean so much to me and it would take just a minute of your time. Thanks, friend. In closing, I want to leave you with this prayer from number six, 24 to 26. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.