Beauty in the Brokenness- Christian Women (Bible Study, Faith, Sexuality, Freedom from Shame)
Welcome to Beauty in the Brokenness—where we have honest conversations about the Bible, our real-life struggles, and the hope God brings for healing. This podcast is hosted by Teresa Whiting, an author, Bible teacher, and trauma-informed life coach, but mostly, a friend and fellow struggler. No matter who you are, or where you’ve been, you're invited to encounter the God of rescue, redemption, and restoration—The God who is still creating beauty— right in the midst of your brokenness. To learn more visit: https://teresawhiting.com/listen
Beauty in the Brokenness- Christian Women (Bible Study, Faith, Sexuality, Freedom from Shame)
Your Wilderness Is Not a Waste with Dustin Crowe (SEEN SERIES)
Tired of waiting for God to answer your prayers? Pastor Dustin Crowe and Teresa Whiting explore how hardships can lead to spiritual growth, deeper faith, and a clearer understanding of God’s purpose.
Whether you’re walking through a difficult season, seeking hope in suffering, or wondering how God might be at work in your life, listen in for encouragement, biblical insight, and practical guidance for finding meaning and purpose in your wilderness.
Click here for show notes and to connect with Dustin Crowe.
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to not try to figure out okay, how is this going to end? Is this going to turn out better? But all you do is say, okay, god, I need strength for today, I need wisdom for today, I need help for today. I don't know how I'm going to make it through, whether it's that next meeting, or taking care of the kids, or an aging parent, whatever it is, I don't know how I'm going to get through this. And all we have to do is ask the Lord okay, I don't have to know, but you will give me strength for today and this trial and this season.
Speaker 2:Hi, friend, if you've ever wondered how God's word connects with the messy, broken parts of your story, you're in the right place. Welcome to Beauty in the Brokenness, where we have honest conversations about the Bible, our real life struggles, where we have honest conversations about the Bible, our real-life struggles and the hope God brings for healing. I'm your host, teresa Whiting, an author, bible teacher and trauma-informed life coach, but mostly a friend and fellow struggler. No matter who you are or where you've been, I'm inviting you to encounter the God of rescue, redemption and restoration, the God who is still creating beauty right in the midst of your brokenness. Well, welcome, friends.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to introduce you to my new friend and my guest today, dustin Crow. Dustin is a discipleship pastor at Stones Crossing Church just outside of Indianapolis, indiana. He and his wife have two young kids, and Dustin is the author of several books, including your Wilderness is Not a Waste. And so, dustin, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today. If you would just tell the listeners a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me on Excited to be here. So I'm a discipleship pastor. That means I kind of oversee adult ministries like classes, men's and women's ministries, small groups. That's what I've done for the last decade Occasionally preach and whatever else they ask me to do at church. Yeah, my family my wife and I live outside of Indianapolis two little kids, eight and four, so we stay pretty busy with them and, yeah, that's about it right now.
Speaker 2:Great, great. So you wrote this book. Your Wilderness is Not a Waste. God's Purpose in Suffering and Struggles and that's a topic I love to talk about, and we've actually been going through the story of Hagar on the podcast, so this is kind of a perfect conversation for us to have that complements her story. But why did you write this? What inspired you to write this and what are your hopes that the readers will take away from this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, usually there are several things kind of converging when you decide to write a book. But I think one of the main things I've experienced personally, but especially as a pastor, what I kind of felt this common theme would come up in people where, when we go through hard things and pain and just those dark seasons of life, we tend to believe I tend to believe the worst of God, that this means that either he's failed me or abandoned me or this period of my life is a waste and I just need to get through this as quickly as possible. But the more I read and study scripture, you see that's clearly not true, that in those hard seasons and dark seasons, the wilderness seasons, those are often where God is doing the most work in us. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's clear, but he makes himself known. And so I just wanted to be able to help people, help myself, kind of, have windows to see oh, like God can work, and God does work in those hard, painful wilderness seasons, especially if we're paying attention, if we let him do that.
Speaker 2:What would you say a wilderness like? How would you define a wilderness season? What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in the Bible I try to stick to like they're actually in a physical wilderness, but a few common things you see in a wilderness season. I think this translates to kind of spiritual life. Often it was a place of lack of resources so you don't have the things you think you need. They didn't have food and water in the wilderness Usually a place of like danger, so there's a threat. But also the wilderness usually a place of like danger, so there's a threat. But also the wilderness is kind of dual opportunity. It can be a place that pushes you to the brink and even challenges your faith, or a place where you see God show up.
Speaker 1:So I think in our lives that wilderness translates to kind of lack of resources is one. So maybe there's a lack of answers for health struggles, a lack of finances, relational emptiness, but there's also those dangers and threats. The reality is, when we are going through pain, that we feel like our faith kind of is being pressed and it can either lead to growth or it can crush and discourage us. So I think those trials, temptations, troubles are how I define wilderness seasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just the common experience of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they can be small or big, I think sometimes we think, well, suffering is only those worst case scenarios. But I really think in the Bible and in our lives, you know, we experience suffering in different degrees. But there is ordinary suffering. That's very hard, you know, seasons of waiting. Sometimes it's hard to describe to people like why this is so painful to me or why this feels so hard, or discouraging, because it's not like the big kind of suffering and yet that's real suffering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging that, because I think there's people who feel maybe we compare our suffering. Oh, I'm not going through what that person's going through, so I shouldn't be complaining. And it doesn't mean it's not painful, so I'm glad you brought that out In your book.
Speaker 2:you talk about all these different biblical characters and their different wilderness experiences. I'm curious. Well, I'd love for you to talk about who are these characters and maybe just give us a little taste of like what each of their stories is. But then also, did you see any common themes, Like what were the common things that you pulled out among these characters and what emerged from their wilderness seasons?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'll say, when I first started like reading on the topic and teaching on it, I thought it would be more of like the wilderness generation. Yeah Well, I'll say, when I first started like reading on the topic and teaching on it, I thought it would be more of like the wilderness generation in Israel, and that's a part of the book. But then I did start to find all these characters and it felt like their stories were so compelling and unique. And so I go through Hagar and maybe I'll save that. We'll talk more about her, since you mentioned Hagar.
Speaker 1:But we talk about Moses, and Moses in particular his 40 years. So he has this kind of climb where it looks like his life will be great. He's in Pharaoh's house, he grows up there and then after he kills someone, he has to run, and so there's this 40-year period before God calls him to free his people, where it feels kind of like his life has passed him by and he's wasting. And I think the story of Moses resonates with our. Sometimes it feels like life has passed me by or I'm not doing the things I thought I'd be doing at this age, and so Moses' story really speaks to that. Talk about David and David's in the wilderness a lot in his life. He spends probably 15 to 20 years of his life in the wilderness, a couple of different times. And yet what's unique about David is we also have his Psalms, so we not only have, like, the narrative of him being in the wilderness, but we get his like journal to talk about how God is at work. So you know, david is willing to lament the pain in the wilderness but he also rejoices and gives thanks and talks about how he experiences God as refuge. So David is a great example.
Speaker 1:I go to Elijah. Elijah goes in the wilderness. Kind of his is different. It's really like despair. When Elijah enters the wilderness he's like I'm done, god, I'm tired of this, I have nothing left, take me. And so his is like kind of complete despair from that point.
Speaker 1:And then you have to go to Jesus. If you're going to talk about characters in the Bible, you should go with Jesus, and so I talked a little bit about Jesus going into the wilderness himself. So how does he fight temptation? But ultimately, as we start to trace this theme of wilderness from the Bible's beginning to end, I think Jesus is the answer. Because when Jesus defeats sin, jesus gives us this promise that one day in the future the wilderness will be completely gone when he returns, and so he gives us that hope that, no matter how bad this life is, we have this promise one day the wilderness will end. Even if our trials here don't, there will be a day where the wilderness goes away and we have these oasis of water, and so I think Jesus is important for that as well.
Speaker 2:I love that when you were talking about Moses and you were saying you know, he felt like he's wasting away, he's wasting his years. I was just journaling the other day, like this feeling of like I'm too late, I'm too late, I'm too old, like well, I should have done this whatever years ago, and really just wrestling with that idea of like I and I don't really, I came at the end of my journal entry. I'm like no, I think I'm, I'm where I'm supposed to be and and right on time. Like God is not, like well, you should. If you had started this 20 years ago like so-and-so did, I kind of came around to say no, I've lived the life that God has given me and maybe I'm right on time. But it was a roundabout journal entry kind of long and wandering.
Speaker 2:But I do think that that comes to us often of like, what am I doing? I'm wasting time, I should have been doing this or I should be at this place in my life and I'm not, so that really resonated with me. And then you were talking about Elijah and the despair that drove him there and Jesus, and I'm like it's cool because all these different stories bring out different facets of a wilderness experience, but it's almost like, but I can relate to that one in this way and I can relate to that one in this way, and so I love how God, you know, in the scriptures, he brings out characters that we all relate to. We're like, yes, brings out characters that we all relate to. We're like, yes, that's my story too. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to ask you because a lot of times we have these predictable ways that we respond to hardship, respond to wilderness. What do you see your work as a pastor and just your interactions with people? What do you feel like are common responses to the wilderness and or is it unique to every person, or are there things that are like this is a pretty common wilderness response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's always some commonalities, but each person is a little unique, like I think. For me, I've noticed, and maybe you know, as I get older, um, but I go pretty quickly to discouragement, maybe even despair, where it's like, okay, if I can't change this, I can't figure it out. Um, it's less like anxiety. I have other people in my life who maybe their response is anxiousness I want to work to try to control this, um or maybe anger I got to fix this. I think those are common responses For me. It's more like I almost feel like stuck, defeated, like I don't know what to do, and then I just feel overwhelmingly discouraged.
Speaker 1:So I think some people kind of you freeze, you get discouraged, whereas other people, like I said, they come into like fix it mode and either there's this, the symptoms of anxiety and anger and worry, but really it's I want to control this, I want to fix this, how do I get myself out, how do I make this better? And then I think there are others who do more of the. I'm going to run the opposite way. I don't like the wilderness and again, I think you see this in Israel I don't like being here, this cannot be for good, and so I'm going to resist this, and I think that's where you get more of the questioning questioning God's character, questioning this season and just I got to get out of here and I'm going to go backwards. So I think those are some common experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to think. I think my experience, like my MO, is, I'm going to, I'm going to just make more lists and do more things, like if I can keep myself busy enough and I'll start feeling better because I'm checking all these boxes off. I think that's probably my way of dealing with those feelings, when you feel out of control and feeling lack and feeling and it's control, right, it's like if I'm doing things, then I feel like I'm in control of the situation. Yeah, yeah, I think it's and it's control, right. It's like if I'm doing things, then I feel like I'm in control of the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think, tied to waiting, one of the things in the wilderness you do see a lot, no matter what is waiting is that element, and so that's one of the hardest thing to do is to wait, because it is out of our control. And so, yeah, I think some of us okay, what can I do? And there can be a good element to that, because we do have, we should be doing things. But that can become well, I just had to keep busy or I got to do all the things as a response to this. Waiting is so hard, I can't, I can't be still and know I need to do so. I think that's probably a common response as well.
Speaker 2:Okay. So then what's a healthy response? What would you say is here's a better way to walk through your wilderness season.
Speaker 1:I think there are a lot. I think part of that is learning If waiting is essential and, again, waiting is so hard. Part of that is saying okay, I trust the Lord, so you have to know His promises. I think it begins with do I know the Lord's character and His promises? Because he does promise that he is with me and he is at work in all things to work this together for my good. So he's not distant, he's not absent, he's not punishing me. And when I know his character, I know his promises, that allows me to kind of pump the brakes and say I do need to wait on him.
Speaker 1:I know in my life, whenever I try to get ahead of him or I try to fix this or open doors, that's never gone well. And so learning to say, okay, god, your plan is probably better than mine, even though it's really hard for me to wait on that. So I'm going to do what your word says of pausing and waiting on you, and that's not just waiting for things to change, but literally waiting on God, waiting on him to work. So you're praying to him, asking him to change things, waiting on him in the sense of like trusting him, choosing to say I don't see what you're doing. I don't like this, but I trust you Also, I think, choosing to see the good, that in every hard day, every hard season, you know there's this weird combination of the brokenness but also beauty, that there's ordinary blessings, and I think we can't see those as well when life is hard.
Speaker 1:But the more you see those, the more you give thanks for those things. It helps you in the waiting to know, like, okay, there are good things as well. I got to cling to those. So I think, prayer, going to scripture, knowing those promises and then seeing who God is. So we wait on him and trust in him and then even ask okay, what are you doing? I think one thing that's been helpful for me in the last couple of years in wilderness seasons is learning to say OK, I'm struggling because I sometimes think you're not doing anything or I don't like what you're doing, and so I've had to change the question to ask OK, you are always doing something good, help me see what you are doing. So it's not necessarily my agenda, but you have an agenda. I want to see that and know that and be patient enough to wait for that. So show me what you are doing, help me see it and that helps me trust in the waiting.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, a couple of things about your answer. First of all, I love how you brought out the beauty in the brokenness, because, okay, so when I first invited you onto this podcast, it was called Find Hope here, but it's now called Beauty and the Brokenness I don't know if you're aware of that, but that is the name of this podcast, so that message is so. It's like that's my heart. But also I like what you said about asking questions. In a season of trial or difficulty, we're making demands or we're talking a lot and we're not asking a lot of questions. Like God, how can you use this? Or what am I to be learning? Or how can I, instead of just quick, like get me out of here, I'm done Like, wait, pause, what's happening inside of me? Why am I responding this way? What's coming up in me?
Speaker 2:I think that learning to ask ourselves questions is such a healthy thing, but it's not our usual MO, it's not mine anyway. But I'm starting to learn to pause and ask myself why am I having this kind of response to this situation? What's going on inside of me? That's saying get me out of here right now? One of the things you talk about is that the wilderness is not a waste. There's purpose, and you talked a little bit about that just now the beauty that you can find. Do you have other ways that people can really begin to dig into that, to find the purpose in this painful season? Are there other I don't know strategies or prayers or anything that you can think of that would say this is, this is how you can go through this season and come out on the other end and say, oh, that wasn't a waste, that was worthwhile.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you're right.
Speaker 1:I think question asking is a big part of that. So even in the book at the end I try to give reflective questions because I think anytime we're going to grow, and especially grow through the wilderness, it does require pausing and reflecting, and we're probably not great at that as a culture, and especially in pain you don't really feel like doing like self-reflection. But I think if you can't ask that, I know for me again, in any trial, part of what happens is that God is revealing things in me, and sometimes that is revealing like the areas where I'm struggling to trust him or where I'm being too self-reliant. And so I think, if we ask those questions, okay, god, no matter what, why I'm in this wilderness you want to do something good, not just for me but in me. You're wanting to shape me and change me, but for that to happen, I have to kind of see it and recognize. So asking the question how are you trying to change me and shape me? And what's the good thing you want to do in my faith while I'm here? Because, like you said, I think part of how we grow through the wilderness, instead of wasting it, is allowing God to use it.
Speaker 1:And again, as a pastor, I do experience a lot of people who don't necessarily grow through the wilderness, because they kind of just put their head down and say this can't be good, god can't use this and I'm just going to get through it. And there isn't always a lot of growth and they kind of have to go through it again and again because God's trying to teach them things. Sometimes he's trying to teach them more of who he is, that he will be the one that provides for them, or he's revealing Himself to them in the wilderness, and sometimes it is to change us, to help us see, okay, these are some things that you need to grow while you're here, but you have to be willing to ask it, see it and then kind of submit it to God. So I do think self-reflection of asking good questions what is God doing? What's he trying to do in me? How is God showing up?
Speaker 1:One of the things you see in every wilderness situation is, typically God allows it to get pretty dark, because then we are stripped of hope and stripped of resources. We can't rely upon anyone else, and that tends to be the moment God shows up. And so that's the question Okay, how can God show up and how is he showing up? We have to ask that question and then maybe ask others. I think there's some of us and some personalities that have a really hard time. If they do self-reflection. It tends toward guilt and like over-analyzation, and we need other people to help us see, like could you help me see what God's been doing in my life, help me see the good of God in the world, and so we kind of need community to help with that side of things. Those are a couple of ways I think we don't waste the wilderness.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that you're talking about community because you're right. I think we can isolate and be like I'm not going to talk about this, I'm not going to share this, I'm not going to burden somebody else with my problems, but then we're robbing other people of the blessing of speaking into our life. We're robbing ourselves of the blessing of hearing from them. So I love that. That thought about you know community and those were, those were a lot of really good suggestions.
Speaker 1:So I appreciate that and I was going to say Elijah, like he's one of the examples, like when he goes into the wilderness he starts he's traveling with an assistant and then he leaves them and he goes into the wilderness all by himself and it does feel like there's a. The narrative is written to show like that's not a wise thing, because he is isolated. That probably leads to some of his despair, whereas if he had his friend with him, that friend could have spoken some truth to him. And again it makes sense where, when we're in a trial or when things are dark, we don't want to burden people or we don't even know how to express what we're feeling and going through. And are they going to understand? Am I going to, you know? Look like I'm making a big deal out of a small thing. And so we start to isolate more and more and then we start believing lies about ourselves and we don't have people to speak truth, to counter those lies, and that's where it just becomes a really, really dark and dangerous place.
Speaker 2:And doesn't God tell him to come out of the wilderness and go find Elisha, isn't?
Speaker 1:that when he's like hey go get this buddy. Yeah, you need that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay. So we've got to get to Hagar, because that's kind of what we've been talking about on the podcast is Hagar's story, and when I saw the title of your book I was like, oh, this is perfect to talk about, because she obviously finds herself in the wilderness not just once, but twice, you know, the first time when she runs away, the second time when she's banished. So I'd love to hear your perspective. You know I've talked about it. We've had some women on the podcast to talk about it, but let's hear your perspective on. You know what God was doing through Hagar and in Hagar, in her wilderness.
Speaker 1:Okay, I could probably talk about this for a long time. I really liked her story and so my book starts with it because I think it is one of the most powerful stories. She is there twice. She's the first person in scripture to name God, so when she's in the wilderness she names you are God who sees. That seems like a pretty big deal when you're a person who gets to name God, and so her time in the wilderness is somewhat unique.
Speaker 1:I think her story really speaks to again a lot of what we experience. Her situation was she was neglected. Obviously she was like the second woman in Abraham's life, and so there's this sense of being overlooked, being abused. Her life was just hard in so many ways, and so when we read it, it makes sense to us like why she felt the need to run. She was in a place of pain, place of rejection, like there's almost nothing good in her life, and she runs, and yet what's beautiful about the story is she's given up. She's kind of there in despair. Where do I go? Like I have no home, I have no people, I have no family, and yet God shows up and God sees her, and I like it because she names like God sees me. But then she says I have seen you. And so she has this play on words where God now I learn God sees me, but now I know him, I see him and I hear him. So it's a beautiful thing. I mean, I imagine she probably had heard a little bit about this God from Abraham and Sarah, but now in the wilderness he reveals himself, he shows up, he provides. It's just a beautiful picture of almost God being a husband to her, of taking care of her and loving her and meeting her in her brokenness and her need and taking care of her. And then it happens again Part of why I like her story and David of her.
Speaker 1:And then it happens again, part of why like her story and David, they both have two very distinct wilderness seasons and I think sometimes we can believe like we go through something really hard and we think, okay, it's done, I've done my wilderness season, I'm good, and that's just not how life is with a Christian life. We will go through many wilderness seasons. And so she has the second time. It's very similar, but now she has a son and I just can't imagine how painful that is and she has no way of providing for her son caring for him.
Speaker 1:They're just stuck and again, god sees her, sees the situation, proves his love, provides the water they need, and so it's a reminder that God has already planned. He leads her to this well she doesn't know about. He's provided the water, and so I think, in the wilderness, it's a reminder, like, whatever that provision you need, whether it's a person or strength or something else, god has already put it there. You don't know it yet, but he has it wherever. He's guiding you and he's going to meet you there and he's actually. He sees you, he knows you, he hears you and he wants to make himself known to you. So I love the story. It's a great story.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I think she's. I always say, oh, I think she's one of my favorites, but I have a lot of favorites Her story is so good, every character and every book becomes the new favorite.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'd love to hear if you're willing to share some of your own wilderness seasons that you've walked through and how you've seen God work in your life. We've talked about some of the scriptural examples, but can you give us an example from your life of maybe a wilderness season that you walked through and what God taught you?
Speaker 1:I could share a couple, and one I'll just mention because it is tied to Hagar. I think I put this in the book, but one of the things that's neat that God always does is he uses His Word to meet us at seasons, and part of why I like teaching is God is always using that in my life, and so actually so I did like a four-week class on some of these characters in the wilderness, probably a year or two years ago, and the night before I was supposed to teach this lesson on Hagar, which really centered around God knowing us and seeing us in our pain. So he knows us in our pain and he hears our prayers. The night before, so Saturday night, my son, who was two at the time he has asthma. He went into respiratory distress and so we ended up having to go. We were at a hospital and then he had to be taken on a lifeline ambulance to a kid's emergency hospital, and my wife was able to go in the ambulance and I'm not able to go, so all I can do. You know, as a dad, that's your worst moment. You see him strapped up to this bed, he's struggling, he's having a hard time breathing, and I'm just in the car behind him and I was just so thankful that I had read and studied that lesson. I wasn't going to get to teach it that morning, but God had put that scripture in my life to help me know, as I'm driving in my car, god knows this and he sees me and he's caring for me and just as he takes care of Hagar's son, he's going to take care of my son, and so I was just thankful that God that's what he does he gives us the scripture we need to help us along. So I was thankful for how he used that in my life to prove like I not only see your pain, I know what you're going through and I'm taking care of you, but I gave you this lesson because you're going to need it. So that was a couple of years ago, tied to Hagar specifically.
Speaker 1:But, even like yesterday, my mom has cancer. She's been battling cancer for about the last year and her body has resisted it not going well. So even yesterday she called and she's at the point of discussing, like do I want to keep doing chemo it's kind of destroying my body or is it the time to just kind of stop and let it run its course, which probably won't be much time. So this has been a hard season for me. I lost my dad to cancer three years ago and I felt like I was just starting to recover from that pain and loss of losing him.
Speaker 1:And then my mom got cancer a year ago and we never know the amount of time, but it doesn't look like she has a ton of time left and so again that's been really hard for me, kind of losing or looking forward to losing both parents and the loss for my kids of not having grandparents and all that's wrapped up in that.
Speaker 1:And yet in those hard situations it's led to like what I can do is pray. I can take my pain to the Lord in prayer and cast my burdens on him and trust that he will be a father to me, he will take care of me, he'll take care of my kids. I have the good news Both of them are believers, so I can rejoice that their wilderness is over. They're actually not in the wilderness anymore no more trials and troubles and so I'm thankful for that. But I've experienced just over the last three years in that personal struggle for me that's been really hard losing them and yet God has been with me and he has taken care of me and he's given me countless other blessings, even though it's still really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sorry for your loss and appreciate you sharing that with us. I think that's something a lot of people can relate to and feel that kind of hole of losing your parents and even the uncertainty of cancer treatment. So it's, it's tough. So thank you for sharing that with us. So you mentioned briefly Jesus in the wilderness, but I'd love to press into his story a little bit more. Was there more that you can bring out about his wilderness experience? Maybe expound on what you said earlier?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one. It's always nice to know, like part of why the life of Jesus is so beautiful is because he was willing to walk through the things that we go through. And so Jesus endured the wilderness, he endured suffering, he endured temptation, he endured trials, and Hebrews talks about him as that sympathetic high priest. And so part of that was to identify with us in our sufferings, and so we know again that God does actually understand that Jesus has walked through that, and so I think there's like an identification with us and our sufferings that makes me just thankful for him and a willingness we always are more willing to share with people who know our struggles or have walked through something similar. And Jesus has been in the wilderness, he's been tempted, and so he knows what that's like. So that's just makes me thankful. I think what I learned most from it again is just seeing how he responds in the wilderness. So he's tempted, he's starving, he's probably prone to discouragement and weariness, and yet the pattern is very clear Each time he's tempted he responds with scripture, and again we know that yeah, when I'm tempted, when I'm discouraged, I should probably go to the Bible.
Speaker 1:But again, I think, in the wilderness, when you are discouraged and weary or you're wondering like why am I stuck here? Is life a waste? Life just feels broken. The response is going back to Scripture to see okay, part of why I want these stories is these are windows of hope. So what are those windows of hope in scripture?
Speaker 1:I need to remember so that I cling to those to say if God did that in Hagar's life, well he can do that in my life. He's the same God. But also to find promises to cling to. So when I'm tempted to not believe God's word, in those dark moments I say like no, this feels like it's not good for my life. Yet the Bible says all things work together for good because you are at work in it. So you battle these thoughts and doubts that are kind of rushing over you in the wilderness with truth, and so if Jesus had to do that, he's probably doing it. Because we need to do that, we need scripture. Again, it's not just surviving hard seasons. It's not just like, okay, I'm going to grit my teeth, I'm going to figure this out, but it's going back to the Bible, meditating on who God is, how he's equipping us and fighting in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are good. Those are good, good thoughts. How can we support other people in their wilderness? Because if we're not in one right now, there's somebody around us who is in a wilderness season. So what? What can we do besides just trying to fix people or make ourselves feel more comfortable? You know, how can we help others who are in pain and suffering?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one thing is be willing to like reach out. We talked a little bit about you know and I know for me and I never liked to reach out to other people or bother them, and especially when you're suffering, you're probably not likely to ask for help or mention like I do need encouragement and you might even be struggling to pray on your own or get into the Bible on your own. So I think if we can be intentional like if you just notice a friend or someone at church and either you know what they're going through or you just notice they're struggling that we take the initiative to ask, hey, are going through, or you just notice they're struggling, that we take the initiative to ask, hey, how can I pray for you or do you want to grab coffee? Or, as we're reading the Bible and we find encouraging truths and stories and promises that we share those, we can text those or just say, hey, I found this that was encouraging to me. So I think, not waiting until somebody's at a complete desperate state and reaches out, because that might not happen, but just whoever's in our life or sphere of influence, to be just an encouragement, sharing God's words, his promises, offering to pray. I think that's part of what we do is just pray with people, not to solve it, but just take them to the Lord's presence. We pray with them.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it might help to give perspective. There's a time to just be quiet and just be present and just to sit and to grieve and to listen, and you got to be willing to do that. And then there might also be a time where, like if God opens the door to give some perspective from his word, to remind them, okay, this is who God is, remember, these are ways he's worked. So you never want to be like preachy and teachy and like you got to discern and ask for the Spirit's discernment, of like, is this the time just to be quiet and listen and grieve, or is there a moment where maybe they need some truth, because there are seasons for both?
Speaker 1:But yeah, you don't. Your job is never to fix someone and so often you can't. I think you experienced that. I experienced that as a pastor that I would love to just be able to give people the truth or help them, or help them change their mind and make the right decision. But you can't fix them. They ultimately have to wait on God and God has to meet with them and you just can be present and you can pray and you can point them to God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that answer that you just gave is very challenging and convicting to me, because it means I have to get my head out of my own little world, I have to look around and care about people and not just be concerned about what I'm doing and what I'm busy with, but to actually care and look and pay attention to other people and their lives, and I think that's something that some people like me, you know, struggle with like I'm busy, I'm doing stuff and and sometimes I miss those opportunities. So I think that was a really good reminder of like pay attention, you see, people that are struggling, take the initiative, take the time and reach out to them. I think that was so good and I'll add, yeah and we?
Speaker 1:I again, I'm an introvert out to them I think that was so good. And I'll add, yeah, and we? I again I'm an introvert. Sometimes I struggle to do that because then I think, well, I don't want to invade, I want to do too much, or maybe they'll read into it. And so we, as the person reaching out, we also have all these thoughts because we're complex, messed up people, and so sometimes we don't do that. But we can never over and encourage people. I've never wondered like I wonder if they need a text of encouragement, and done it and found out, oh yeah, they just had too much encouragement, they didn't need it. Everybody is in need of prayer and encouragement. So if you're wondering like, should I do it, just do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, this morning my sister texted me this beautiful prayer that she was praying for me and I almost cried. I was like thank you. I wasn't like now, why is she doing that?
Speaker 2:I was just like wow, that was amazing. So, yeah, that's a good point. People need it. Even if they're not asking for it, they need it and you can't give them too much. So, dustin, this has been a great conversation and you can't give them too much. So, dustin, this has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, what's the best way for people to find you, get in contact with you, find your books? Do you have a website or a place we can direct people?
Speaker 1:I have a website called IndieCrow. I-n-d-y for Indianapolis Crow C-R-O-W-E, so I'm on social media with that same handle. Indiecrow Books can be found online in most places. So yeah, indiecrow.
Speaker 2:I'll have the links in the show notes, as usual, but in closing would you speak directly to the listener who is in the middle of a wilderness season, who maybe feels like they're in a time where their life is just either falling to pieces or feeling really too hard to walk through, and they're feeling that desperation? Can you give them a word of encouragement?
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe one thing I know that's helped me in those seasons I love the story where God does provide manna each day, and so my encouragement would be to not try to figure out, okay, how is this going to end, is this going to turn out better? But all you do is say, okay, god, I need strength for today, I need wisdom for today, I need help for today. I don't know how I'm going to make it through, whether it's that next meeting or taking care of the kids or an aging parent, whatever it is. I don't know how I'm going to get through this and all we have to do is ask the Lord okay, I don't have to know, but you will give me strength for today and this trial and this season. You know you give manna day by day.
Speaker 1:Jesus says ask for your daily bread. And I think in our wilderness we want the end, we want to know how it's going to work out, we want the bow and to know, but tell me where it's going. And he just doesn't give us that answer. But he does say I am with you, I'm working. So you can't yet tell how I'm working, but I am working and working this out for your good. But ultimately I would just encourage, like, ask for strength for today, and then you live on that strength for today. Notice his blessings today, maybe, see how he's working today, find one promise to cling to today, and then what I've experienced in those hard days is okay. Those days pile up. He gives you strength one day, and then another, and another, and then you're out of a wilderness and you look back and then you see, oh, that's what he was doing, that's what he was doing in me and through me and for me. I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me every day, day by day.
Speaker 2:I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me every day, day by day, thank you, thank you so much for your encouragement and the work that you're doing. It was great having you today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for hanging out with me today on Beauty in the Brokenness. To find anything I mentioned on the episode, go to TeresaWhitingcom slash listen, which is where you can find all the show notes. I will have links to Dustin, to his book and to all the ways that you can get in contact with him. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you take just a minute and share it with a friend? You can hit that little share button it's the square with the arrow in it and just send it to someone who you think would be encouraged.
Speaker 2:Maybe someone you know is walking through a wilderness season right now and they could use this type of encouragement. Thanks so much for sharing the message of beauty in the brokenness. I appreciate you and your part in helping me spread the word and I pray that you have eyes to see the beautiful redemptive work of Jesus in the midst of your broken life. In closing, I want to leave you with this prayer from Numbers 6, 24 to 26. The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.