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Find Hope Here with Teresa Whiting - Christian Women (Bible Study, Faith, Sexuality, Freedom from Shame)
Find Hope Here is a podcast about holding the messy, complicated, painful parts of life alongside the beautiful, joy-filled hope that Jesus promises. Join Teresa Whiting each week as she digs deep into God’s Word and shares truths that impact our everyday lives. Listen in as you're walking, running errands, or folding laundry. No matter where you are or where you’ve been, you will always find hope here! To learn more visit: https://teresawhiting.com/listen
Find Hope Here with Teresa Whiting - Christian Women (Bible Study, Faith, Sexuality, Freedom from Shame)
Finding Courage When Your Husband Struggles With P*rnography with Jody Allen - Part 1 (SEXUAL WHOLENESS SERIES)
I know Jody Allen’s story will speak deeply to many of you. Despite years of counseling and intensive treatment, her husband ultimately chose pornography over his marriage, his children, and his family. After a long and painful struggle, Jody’s marriage ended in divorce.
Without minimizing the deep pain of her journey, Jody shares the countless ways God has shown Himself faithful. In part one of our conversation, she offers heartbreaking statistics, reveals the warning signs of porn addiction, and shares two powerful mantras that helped carry her through.
She reminds us that while we may not choose our circumstances, we always have agency in how we respond. Most importantly, her journey reminds us that healing is possible, hope is real, and God's love is strong enough to meet us in every broken place.
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But I think there are two phrases that I go back to as takeaways from that season in my life, and one of those is I can do hard things because I can. We all have to do hard things and I had to do something hard. And second one was that I have a choice to make, that I'm not a victim and that all of us have choices that we need to make. So I think that's very important to recognize that, yes, this is hard, but I can do it and I have a choice. I have a choice.
Speaker 2:Hi, friend, You're listening to Find Hope here. I'm your host, Teresa Whiting. Author, speaker, ministry leader, friend and fellow struggler. Leader, friend and fellow struggler. This is a podcast about the messy, complicated, painful parts of life, but also the beautiful, joy-filled hope that Jesus promises. Each week, we dig deep into God's Word together and talk about how His truth impacts our everyday lives. I'm not going to ask you to sit with me and have coffee, because I seem to have my best conversations while I'm just doing life. So I'd love to hang out with you as you walk or fold laundry or drive to work. You're invited to join me in pursuing the hope God promises, no matter where you are or where you've been. I pray you always find hope here.
Speaker 2:Let's jump in to today's episode. There are so many women walking through a similar story as Jodi Allen, whose husband struggled with pornography addiction, and they're walking this road silently and alone. Well, today my conversation with Jodi is going to shed some light and pour some hope into the hearts of those women. Hey, friends, I am excited to introduce you to my guest today. Jodi Allen is an author, speaker and ministry leader. She's on staff at her church, where she serves as the director of women's ministry and first impressions, and she is mom to college age twins and a geriatric black lab. So, Jodi, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Will you tell the listeners a little bit more about who you are and what you do?
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me, teresa, as you said, I am on staff at my church. I've been there for almost well, actually a little over 11 years and when people say first impressions they're like what does that even mean? That just means I manage our greeters and our ushers, our coffee people, the parking team and things in that nature. But yes, I am an empty nester, but my kids are graduating from college in May and that means they are going to be launching into the world, into their own new adventure. So that's kind of exciting and sad as a mom and we train our kids, we train our kids to do that. And then, while I hear they are doing it, I'm also involved in our local Toastmasters club, and that really is. It's an international organization that helps you hone your public speaking skills. So I do that every Thursday morning at seven o'clock get up early and head to the Y and go to Toastmasters.
Speaker 2:Sounds so fun.
Speaker 1:I love that. And then, teresa, as you know, you and I both have a common love, and that is the love of peanut butter. Now, I don't make my own peanut butter like you do, but I do love peanut butter.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's a good fun fact. Thank you for throwing that in there. If you ever come to visit, I will be sure to have homemade peanut butter on hand for you. So I want to jump in because we have so much to talk about today and the listeners don't know this. But I'm going to let them in on our little secret, that we actually recorded this episode about three months ago and I somehow my computer made it disappear. So this is take two on our recording and I'm so excited for another conversation with you. But we're here to talk about the book that you wrote, which is called Hidden Heartache, and we're kind of turning the corner because we've been joking a lot. But this is a really serious topic and if you could tell the listeners the story behind that, what brought you to the place of writing that book and what are your hopes for it and what are your hopes for it?
Speaker 1:Well, I was in a marriage for almost 20 years and pornography had surfaced several times throughout our marriage and I had we go through the motions of, we go to counseling and we do all the things, but several years ago it surfaced really for the last time and I said no more. And so Hidden Heartache really is. It's partly my story of walking through my husband's or now ex-husband's pornography addiction, but it's also a collection of practical tools that I just learned along the way that painful season. And I wrote it really for several reasons, and Dr Julie Slattery, which she opened this podcast series with you, mentioned it at the very first podcast, where that pornography brings in more income annually than NBA, major League Baseball and NFL put together, and that speaks to the scope of the pornography industry. And so one reason I wrote it because the need is so great.
Speaker 1:One out of every five mobile searches is for pornography, and so statistics like that are staggering, and not just in the world Teresa, but really also in the church Covenant Eyes, which is an internet filter. They have done extensive research on the subject of pornography and they say that 64% of Christian men view pornography at least once a month. One out of seven pastors and one out of five youth pastors use porn on a regular basis and say that they are currently struggling. Use porn on a regular basis and say that they are currently struggling. So I think the church just needs biblically sound resources to help men and women who are desperate for help. So I think that's one reason why I wrote it, just because the need is so great.
Speaker 1:But another reason is, like so many women whose husband is struggling with pornography, I kept it hidden just in the shadows because it's painful, it is humiliating and there is such a stigma, as you know, teresa, when we're talking about pornography or really anything sexual in nature. And so I really wrote Hidden Heartache just as an invitation, just to invite women out of shame. The enemy uses shame to hold men in the clutches of pornography, but he also uses shame for their wives, and I just wanted to invite women into the freedom of living a completely different way to live free. And the last reason that I wrote it is God had brought God brought so much healing to my life and, honestly, I just felt like it would be stingy not to share that, dr Anneke?
Speaker 1:Vandenbroek, and I wanted to join the collection of voices that are already out there in the world other authors, other wives who have written books to help women in this time of desperation. But I also wanted to bring a different perspective to it, because a lot of those books that the women are still married, which is a huge win, of course. But I am coming from a different angle because I am divorced. Coming from a different angle because I am divorced and I just want women to know that they can be whole, they can be happy, even if it doesn't turn out the way that they want it to.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh man, so many of those reasons. I feel like you just gave a big, huge hug to so many of the listeners right now who are walking through that or who have walked through it and all the things you mentioned, the shame and the silence and the hiding that comes with that kind of a situation. I think so many people are maybe just taking a sigh and like, wow, thank you, thank you for talking about this, for bringing it out in the open, and then even what you said about your story the end of your story is not. We have a restored marriage. I mean, I've had people on the podcast who have talked about that and the restoration and that is something we celebrate. But often when the story ends in divorce, we just kind of don't talk about that story. And so I'm so glad you're here, right? So I'm so glad you're here because divorce is the story of many, many people who are in this situation, and so I want to kind of press into your experience, because I think there's a lot of women who can relate to what you have walked through, and even maybe they're not on the other side of it in the way that you are of saying I can be healed and I can be whole and I can still live a good life, um, even though things did not turn out the way I wanted them to. So I appreciate, I appreciate that so much. Um.
Speaker 2:So, as you mentioned, we are in a series right now about sexual wholeness and we've talked a bit, you know, about sexual addiction with some of the other guests that I've been talking to. But your story is different, because we're not talking about your sexual addiction, we're talking about the addiction of your spouse, and so you're coming at this from an angle of how can you be sexually whole despite what you have encountered in your marriage? You know what is, what does that look like for you? But before we get there, before we get this, I want to ask more questions about pornography addiction. Like, what does that look like? What are some signs? Because there may be people in marriages who are thinking like, what are some signs? Because there may be people in marriages who are thinking I think my spouse might be struggling, but I don't know. And when I ask him he says no, I'm fine. So can you talk to the person who maybe thinks there might be some signs about what those are?
Speaker 1:I think that's a great question, because I think some of these signs I did not realize until I was on the other end of it, and or maybe I noticed them, but I didn't put it all together. And so I will say I do want to give you a list. But I also want to say, just because men are experiencing, or you are experiencing, these things with your husband, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a pornography issue. It could be a medical issue or something else. So I feel like I should probably say that.
Speaker 1:But I think one sign and this was the case for me is just if your husband is staying up late after you go to bed. Sure, we sometimes work home with this, or if we work from home, it's kind of hard to have those boundaries. But I think if your husband frequently stays up after you go to bed, it might mean he's working, or it might mean that there's just something on his computer that's luring him in. And I know for me going to bed alone is just it's a hard way to live. It's a hard way to live.
Speaker 1:So I feel like it's just healthy when you go to bed together and it's hard if you've got a night out and a morning person, but I think that's something to consider. If your husband is staying up past you. Also, if your husband is spending a lot of time in the bathroom, if your husband spends a lot of time in there with the door closed, he could be watching pornography. If he's not making eye contact when we feel shame for various reasons whether it's pornography or whatever it is then we just don't lock eyes with other people and that could mean that that's because we're just feeling uncomfortable and we're ashamed, so we don't look people in the eye.
Speaker 1:And so, if you, find that your husband avoids eye contact, porn could be lingering in the background. I know that at one point our neighbors said to me have you ever noticed that your husband doesn't make eye contact?
Speaker 2:with people.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't just with me, it was other people, because he was experiencing so much shame. Another one is just a change in sex drive. Maybe he's not interested in intimacy anymore because porn might really be meeting his physical needs and it's difficult to enjoy intimacy with a real person after you have consumed so much pornography, so he just avoids intimacy altogether. Or it might be on the other end of the spectrum where he has an increased interest in intimacy in hopes of just maybe recreating that thrill of pornography. And I will say this I think that we don't need to feel the pressure of feeling like we have to compete with pornography, because really we're not going to win.
Speaker 2:So when it?
Speaker 1:comes to something like that, we just don't. We just don't feel like we need to have to accommodate him or compete with pornography. Also having trouble with arousal for men when our body receives such high pleasure from pornography, because it is like a drug, it's like a real, live, intimate situation which then makes his wife less stimulating. So when the more pornography is consumed, the less appealing an encounter with his wife becomes.
Speaker 1:So and certainly there are medical reasons for that. There were medications that could cause arousal issues, but pornography use can be one of those concerns and I think another sign of pornography use or addiction is just emotional distance.
Speaker 1:If words like disconnected or detached or avoidance describe your relationship, then you just might be lacking that emotional intimacy. And because pornography doesn't require emotional intimacy, there's no give and take, it's just all take. And I feel like if you're the one that's carrying the conversation most of the time, or you're asking all the questions, or he seems antisocial in social settings, pornography could be the culprit not necessarily, but it could be. And then another one really is just mood swings If there's depression or anger or lots of defensiveness, or he's feeling withdrawn or irritable, that could be signs that pornography is also lingering in the background. Now it could be symptoms. Those aren't symptoms that are exclusive to pornography. There are legit medical issues, of course, that could be present, and I will say ADHD really is an often overlooked coexisting condition with addiction. So just a trip to the doctor might be in order. And so I feel like if women are experiencing some of these signs, it just might be time to start a conversation or to maybe start asking some questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I will. I do want to say that we're talking about husbands that are addicted to pornography, but sometimes it's wives, you know. So if you're a man listening to the podcast and you're saying, well, this is not, this is not my situation, but it's my wife, well, it goes both ways, and I think the things that you mentioned could go for men or women. It was so interesting when Dr Slattery was talking about the increase in pornography use among women, like just in the last couple of decades, is that they have intentionally targeted women, and so it's. We used to talk about it strictly as a men's issue and now it's not.
Speaker 2:But anyway, for the purposes of today's conversation, we're going to go with the story and your experience, because it is very common for the wife to be, you know, the one that is not using pornography and the husband is. So anyway, I just wanted to point that out there, and you know we've kind of jumped a little bit. You've said little pieces and parts. Are you willing to kind of tell the listeners the story of kind of what you walked through, maybe your discovery, and kind of the next steps after that? Because I think sometimes when somebody makes that discovery or that is first a shock to them. There's almost a paralysis of I don't even know what to do next. So maybe you could walk through a little bit of your story and what you would say to somebody who might be in the initial stages.
Speaker 1:Sure, as I said, pornography surfaced several times in our marriage and finally, the last time that it surfaced, I think when it surfaced at several times. You don't know what you don't know. And pornography was such a taboo thing and it still is, and it wasn't really talked about much then. And when it surfaced in my marriage, I you know, you go to counseling and you do all the things and all the things that you're supposed to do, which is great. But and I assumed that things were happening on his end, with his men's group and that sort of thing, but they weren't happening the way that I guess I thought that they should or would progress them to the point where he is healing. And so when pornography surfaced the last time, I had to make a choice Was I going to keep tolerating this in my marriage or was I going to put my foot down and say no more?
Speaker 1:And so I just called and said I'm sorry you're going to have to find so much to live because called and said I'm sorry you're going to have to find so much to live because you're not living here. And that was the beginning of a very hard journey and we went through a two-year process of he went to a in-house treatment center for three months. We, our whole family, we've all been to counseling Teresa. We could go on a very nice vacation for what we've spent on our family just in counseling and healing. But after two years and lots of water under the bridge, I just found myself in a. I felt like I was in the same situation I was before and unfortunately that eventually took us to divorce and that is where we are today. But I feel like finding people in your life to support you through that process is really very pivotal. It's very pivotal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are some of the things that you've learned about yourself throughout this process, or about relationships as you've walked through this process?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that there are a couple of, I'd say, life-changing things about myself that I learned, and one is that I learned I had to acknowledge and deal with my own trauma, past and present, and typically when something hard surfaced in my life, I usually dismissed it because somebody always had it worse, which was true. I mean, it's good to have perspective, but what I learned is I had to acknowledge and deal with my own pain and to stop minimizing my own pain. And then I also learned that, through that process of counseling and separation and eventually divorce, I had to take a long look in the mirror, and I don't know that any of us really like doing that, but sometimes the person I see in my mirror is the person I want to be, but other times it's not the person I want to be and have to deal with that. But sometimes the person I see in my mirror is the person I want to be, but other times it's not the person I want to be and have to deal with that. I mean, that's the continuing journey that we are on with the Lord and just growing in holiness and being more like Him.
Speaker 1:So it was working through my own stuff, but as a parent, I learned that I parent differently because of the road that we walked. And I was diligent about phones. I was diligent about social media. My children had to read a book on social media before I would even let them be on social media, and it wasn't. They didn't just read it. We had this long discussion. We broke it up into two sections. It was probably two 45-minute conversations with each one of my children before they could even get on social media.
Speaker 1:So maybe if we had walked a different road, if it had been alcohol or if it had been prescription drugs, I would have parented differently based on that. But because it was pornography, we just parented a different way. And I think, on a practical level, our family was truly blown away by God's faithfulness and God showed us again and again and again that he is not broke. He truly owns the cattle on a thousand heroes. And, like I said, we spent so much money on a treatment center and counseling for a whole family and all the things that are necessary to heal a family, and God was beyond faithful to us. He was just beyond faithful. And here's another thing that I learned. It's just a practical piece that some people give terrible advice. Some people give terrible advice.
Speaker 2:Like what? Let's hear some of the terrible advice you received.
Speaker 1:Well, I had a friend who said to me and again, people just don't know what they don't know. So you know you can't be mad at them. But one lady said to me well, you should be more available in the bedroom. And I was like well, I don't think that's the best advice. And then there is the whole crowd Well, boys will be boys. I'm like, well, no, no, boys won't be boys, because that's not what the Bible calls us to.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So that's pretty terrible advice.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I agree, but I agree.
Speaker 1:But I think there are two phrases that I go back to as takeaways from that season in my life, and one of those is I can do hard things because I can.
Speaker 1:We all have to do hard things and I had to do something hard. And second one was that I have a choice to make, that I'm not a victim and that all of us have choices that we need to make. So I think that's very important to recognize that, yes, this is hard, but I can do it and I have a choice. I have a choice and I think the last thing that I learned which, honestly, is still a struggle with me and I was at a women's retreat not long ago and I felt like that I finally made some progress on this but divorce is not a death sentence. While it's terrible and it's hard, but you can make it through, because God loves divorced people too, and I just think that's important to know. But I feel like in the Christian culture there's just so much shame in the area of divorce and nobody was was actively shaming me. It's just my internal dialogue.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I just, I just. It was revolutionary for me to to understand that God loves divorced people too.
Speaker 2:Thank you for saying that. I think that that needs to be said so.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:What more can you tell the listeners about pornography addiction aside from your personal story, like what are some other things that you learned about that kind of addiction?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not a doctor, but I do know that pornography use it just rewires the brain and it makes it harder to experience pleasure in real life situations which we talked about. So it's not just as easy to just stop. It requires work, it requires support and it doesn't seem like because you're not really ingesting anything into your body, you're not taking in alcohol or pills or anything of that nature. So it seems like it should just be easy to stop, but unfortunately it's not. Pornography is just like another drug. So I feel like that's sort of a misconception because most people think you can just stop because it's not something you're taking in your body. But also porn addiction can cause people to neglect their work and can cause people to neglect their responsibilities. It just consumes all their time and their mental energy because they are always thinking about it, which makes it harder for them to focus. They're always thinking about when that next time I'm going to be in front of my phone or in front of my computer, and they're very distracted.
Speaker 2:I mean, it sounds just like a regular drug.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's exactly what drugs do. You're just looking for the next hit. And that's what you're describing here, despite the fact that they know they're going to be caught. So I know that for my husband we had a filter on our computer but he downloaded pictures and brought them home and he said when he put them on the computer he said, well, I'm sure Jodi's going to find this. So when you know that you're going to get caught, but you still do it, it's definitely an addiction and you know.
Speaker 1:I think another thing too, teresa, is unfortunately pornography addiction is not recognized as a mental health disorder in the DSM, which is the diagnostic manual. Alcohol addiction and drug addiction both are recognized, but not pornography or sex addiction. And so you're probably wondering like why does it even matter? But without a diagnosis code from a diagnostic manual, then insurance companies won't pay for treatment. So until we can get the mental health professionals to acknowledge that this is an issue, that it makes getting treatment so much harder, and so a lot of people have to pay out of pocket for treatment that costs tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket for treatment that costs tens of thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2:Hey friends, I'm going to break in right here and interrupt this conversation, but I promise you want to come back next week and hear the rest of my conversation with Jodi Allen when we talk about practical steps that lead to healing, and scripture passages that you can hold onto for strength and hope. Thanks for hanging out with me today on Find Hope here. To find anything we mentioned on the episode, go to TeresaWhitingcom. Slash listen, which is where you can find all the show notes While you're waiting for part two of this episode. Go to JodiAllenWritescom. Also. Check out her book Hidden Heartache.
Speaker 2:I have an email that goes out every week called my weekly podcast update, and in that email you'll get links to how to connect with the guests, links to their resources and their books. So I highly recommend, if you haven't signed up for that email list, go ahead and do that today. If you haven't signed up for that email list, go ahead and do that today. The link to sign up is in the show notes. In closing, I want to leave you with this prayer from Romans 15, 13. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace and believing, so that, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you may abound in hope.